The Diamond and the Lollipop-A dialogue between friends

"If you cannot prove that the diamond is worth more than the lollipop, then the lollipop is worth more than the diamond."

By Hong-chung Li

Cheng Lu and Wu Shang are good friends. The following is a dialogue between them about faith:

Unless He stood in front of me

Wu: Hi, Cheng. I cannot understand why you believe in God. I thought you were a rational thinking person. Can you prove to me that God exists ?

Cheng: No, I can't. I would need to be higher, wiser, and greater than He is, to be able to prove God's existence. If I could prove that God exists, you wouldn't need to believe in God, but in me.

Wu: If you cannot prove that God exists, then how can you believe in Him?

Cheng: You need to have faith in order to know God.

Wu: I want to believe, but I can't. No one could convince me of God's existence unless God Himself came and stood in front of me or performed some kind of miracle.

Cheng: I think that even if Jesus stood right in front of you and performed all the miracles that He performed before, if you didn't want to believe, you would still not believe in Him. You would use all kinds of reasons to excuse yourself. Perhaps you would even view it as a new scientific discovery.

Wu: Not necessarily! But I think if you want to believe in something, you need to analyze it scientifically. I cannot believe in something that cannot be accepted rationally.

Cheng: The problem is that what worries you is not your rationality. Because we make judgments by observation and feeling, not with our minds. What prevents you believing in God's existence is not your rationality, or science or philosophy, but your faith. This is the basic thing that supports your rationality and your judgment.

Wu: Faith? I don't have faith.

Cheng: You are wrong again. There is no one who doesn't have faith. We all have our own faith. However, no one can believe in two opposing faiths.

Wu: So what is faith then?

Cheng: Faith is actually a person's world view, expressed in his life. His world view is a person's basic hypothesis about the real objective world.

Wu: I understand the concept of world view, but how is this related to faith?

Cheng: Many people think that they live in "reality". However, they are living inside their own world view, because subconsiously they treat their world view as "reality". Their thoughts, their life aims, their standards for making judgments and their sense of values cannot be separated from this "reality". So this is actually the person's faith. When a new concept conflicts with a person's "reality", he will still use his old methods and standards to think about and judge this new concept. Then, according to his own understanding, he will make his decision to accept or reject the concept.

The diamond or the lollipop ?

Wu: Can you give me an example to explain what you've just described?

Cheng: If you only had one choice, which would you choose ? a diamond or a lollipop?

Wu: The diamond, of course.

Cheng: What if I let a child choose between a diamond and a lollipop?

Wu: A child would choose the lollipop since he has no concept of the value of diamonds.

Cheng: Could you prove to the child that the diamond is more valuable than the lollipop?

Wu: It would be difficult. If I tried to prove it to him, he could possibly not comprehend.

Cheng: If you cannot prove that the diamond is more valuable than the lollipop, then is the lollipop more valuable than the diamond, then ?

Wu: What kind of logic is this? Only a small child would accept that.

Cheng: It's the same kind of logic that causes atheists to believe that if you cannot prove that God exists, God definitely does not exist.

Wu: No, your statement is wrong. A child cannot value a diamond because he is only a child, who only has very limited knowledge. But we are grown ups.

Cheng: When the child chooses the lollipop, does he know that his knowledge is limited and that his choice could be wrong?

Wu: Of course not! He will definitely think the lollipop is more precous than the diamond. Cheng: This is just what I wanted to emphasize. One's views are formed subconsciously. He may think they are accurate and use them as a criterion for making judgments. When he is faced with a new concept, his first response is not to reconsider whether his view is correct, but to use it as a criterion to make his judgment. Whatever is contradictory to his view, he will reject.

There are still unlimited numbers of possibilities

Wu: I don't agree with you. I'm very open minded and can accept any new concept.

Cheng: Then why can't you accept the concept of "Jesus is God"?

Wu: I have reasons for not accepting it. One reason is that you cannot prove God's existence.

Cheng: This reason springs from deep rooted atheism. The view, "There is no God", is a human formulation. In this kind of thinking, no matter how many evidences of God's existence I am able to provide, they are still meaningless to you. All your judgments of any evidence are made using your already well established hypothesis - there is no God.

Wu: No. I have never intentionally denied God's existence. In fact I truly desire that the almighty perfect God you describe should exist.

Cheng: You did not feel that you "intentionally" denied God. This just proves the problem. How do you react when you read the miracles described in the Bible ?

Wu: It depends. Sometimes, the authors may have made up the stories. Some stories might not be all true. Of course, some may be undiscovered natural phenomena. Perhaps some are due to unexplainable causes.

Cheng: When you consider the causes of miracles, you might believe in all other possible explanations, but still reject the possibility of "God". See ? you have already excluded the answer! How can you find the real answer amongst the unlimited numbers of possibilities? What if there are many miracles? Isn't your attitude one of "intentional rejection of God"? I believe your "intentional behavior" is "subconscious". Isn't your "subconscious" rejection of God caused by your atheism?

Rationalism is not the key

Wu: Atheism is a kind of faith? This is the first I've heard of it !

Cheng: Can you prove that God doesn't exist?

Wu: Well, of course not. Logically you can never prove the non-existence of any thing.

Cheng: Correct! Then your choice is to "believe" that God does not exist. And you have held firmly to that belief . You think this is the truth. In your daily life, you are letting this belief guide all your thoughts and judgment subconsciously. It therefore becomes your "faith".

Wu: That seems to make some sense. But you cannot prove God's existence either. Believing in God's existence may not be correct, so this is your "faith".

Cheng: Theism and atheism are both faith. But they are two opposites. You have subconsciously chosen the latter, so it's impossible for you to choose the first one unless you give up your original faith.

Wu: Your Christian religion is too authoritarian. Why should I give up my faith and choose yours?

Cheng: I'm not forcing you to choose my faith, but helping you to understand. The key to our discussion is not whether it's rational or irrational, but a different views of faith. There is only one theism and one atheism. If we just stay on the rational surface of discussing whether God exists, it's meaningless. The basic tenets of these two views are completely different.

Wu: I think I understand something of what you are saying. But if so, atheists would never come to believe in God?

Cheng:Half correct. Once you sense that we differ in faith but not in rationality, you should stop looking for the reason in rationality but should examine your own faith and ask whether that is correct and dependable. If it's not dependable, you need tohave the courage to give it up, and seek for a more real and dependable faith. Would you please seriously consider whether atheism is believable?

The difference between "Not Able to Prove" and "Not Able to Know"

Wu: What is the effect of rationality on faith? What's its relationship to faith?

Cheng: This cannot be explained easily. Let me give you a brief answer. True faith is to know and surrender to the truth. Truth is not against rationality. Truth is greater than rationality. If man only depends on rationality, he cannot really know the truth. So in to know the truth, the main factor is faith. Also, "only knowing the truth from the knowledge perspective" is not faith. You need to be willing to obey the truth. Lastly, when you know the truth, you will enjoy the freedom and joy that truth brings you. Therefore, Christian faith renews all aspects of man's belief, rationality, will and emotions. I suggest that you come to our Bible Study to talk about this in more detail.

Wu: I am glad to hear that Christian faith is not against rationality. If what you say is true, my rationality is still very useful.

Cheng: Rationality is important, but if you use it in the wrong way, it will make you stumble or lead you into a quagmire. For instance, most of your questions in our earlier discussion are rational questions that are not very clear or are distorted. They can easily make people misunderstand or become extremists. Therefore, rationality needs the truth to lead it, if it is to become useful. Accurate rationality can help a person to reject doubting thoughts about God's existence and help him not to have excuses for denying God.

Wu: I seem to be able to accept the rationality of not being able to prove God's existence, but I still cannot be assured of His existence? How can I know Him?

Cheng: To know of God's existence is different from knowing God. Many people get confused. When we say that man cannot depend on his own wisdom and rationality to get to know God, this doesn't mean that God does not allow people to get to know Him.

Wu: How does God make it possible for people to know Him?

Cheng: God reveals Himself to man.

Wu: How can man know God?

Cheng: By believing and accepting His revelation. This is faith. A person's faith cannot only be formed by the use of rationality. This is like someone wanting to stand on his own shoulders in order to see into the distance. We can only build our faith on God's revelation. Only then can we get to know Him-- the God who is both rational and above rationality. At the same time, one can only truly know oneself when one overcomes oneself.

Wu: What you say is kind of making sense but I still have a lot of questions. Let me think about it and I would like to talk to you more in the future.

Cheng: See you soon.

The author is from China. He now lives in Florida, USA.